WEBVTT 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:08.560 Hi, my name is Tanvi Prabhakar and I'm a first year MPH student at Columbia University's 00:00:08.560 --> 00:00:14.720 Mailman School of Public Health and I'm in the Epidemiology Department. My certificate is in 00:00:14.720 --> 00:00:19.200 Health Policy and Practice, which led me to take this class that I'm interviewing you for. 00:00:19.200 --> 00:00:24.960 And thank you so much, firstly, for the prestigious opportunity to interview you. 00:00:26.720 --> 00:00:33.120 To begin, could you please introduce yourself, including your professional background and 00:00:33.120 --> 00:00:37.040 just give us a little more insight into your responsibilities as a public health leader. 00:00:37.040 --> 00:00:45.440 Okay, my name is Anil Vankade. I'm a state government officer, Maharashtra's government 00:00:45.440 --> 00:00:52.560 officer. I have about 28 years of service completed in the government, worked in various sector 00:00:52.560 --> 00:01:00.720 infrastructure, health, skills, social sector. So various sectors I could lay my hands on 00:01:00.720 --> 00:01:08.560 and moreover, when I had my opportunity to work with Mumbai Municipal Corporation, 00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:15.520 that is one of the biggest municipal corporation in the local body in India. If not in India, 00:01:15.520 --> 00:01:20.800 it's across Asia, it is one of the biggest because we cater to about 00:01:20.800 --> 00:01:33.760 1 crore 40 lakh population. Wow. Yeah, so it's a very, very big organization and health is a very 00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:42.800 prominent subject in the municipal corporation and particularly during the pandemic, I was 00:01:42.800 --> 00:01:49.280 director and in charge of the COVID hospital, one of the biggest, what do you call, 00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:57.760 is the biggest hospital we created in Bandrakurala complex. It was a temporary setup, 00:01:57.760 --> 00:02:09.440 having capacity of about 2,300 patients, which is a very big number and was the largest facility 00:02:09.440 --> 00:02:17.520 available in Mumbai. Wow. And what were your responsibilities as a director for such a huge 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:26.000 temporary setup? Yeah. Well, I was in charge of the facility, overall in charge administrative 00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:34.320 head of the facility. There was a doctor, Dean, who was reporting to me and he was primarily handling 00:02:34.320 --> 00:02:43.520 all the health related activities and reporting to me. Okay. That's so and just to get a little 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:51.200 more insight into this, as a leader navigating the complexities that arise during the COVID-19 00:02:51.200 --> 00:02:58.880 pandemic in Mumbai, could you paint a picture of the ethical landscape that you had faced 00:02:58.880 --> 00:03:07.040 during this as a leader for this? Okay. During pandemic, there was a lot of challenge 00:03:07.040 --> 00:03:12.320 as to how do we do our procurements. That was, I think, one of the biggest challenge. 00:03:12.320 --> 00:03:19.200 In the traditional way, how we do the procurement in the government was impossible. And having said so, 00:03:19.200 --> 00:03:26.640 how do we do that procurement transparently? And how do we document? Because you may be 00:03:26.640 --> 00:03:35.360 aware that the situation was so bad that we were not getting doctors for work. And handling papers, 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:42.720 handling printing, handling tenders about the procurement was just not possible. So, 00:03:42.720 --> 00:03:51.040 there were a lot of such hurdles. But we decided that whatever we would be the hurdle, 00:03:51.040 --> 00:03:58.800 but we must follow some process, whereby there will be a transparency. And there will be proper 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:05.360 documents which will be created so that there may not be any objection in later part. So, accordingly, 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:16.800 accordingly, I myself took initiative to prepare SOPs. Like for a transit hospital, 00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:25.280 there are no SOPs. Like, where do we should put our garbage? Because that's not a planned hospital. 00:04:25.280 --> 00:04:30.560 It was a tent-like structure. And we were supposed to manage within that. And then, 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:39.120 there was a safe area and there was a contaminated area where the positive patients were there. 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:44.480 And we have created a separate facility for the doctors. So, all these challenges were there. 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:51.360 And primarily, how do we do that entire thing in a transparent manner? I think that was a major 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:59.440 challenge. Right. And could you elaborate a little more about the transparency aspect of it in terms 00:04:59.440 --> 00:05:05.920 of, you know, as an ethical decision-making process? Like, why was it so important to be 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:16.240 transparent? Well, we were dealing with public money. And whatever may be the situation, because 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:24.240 in Maharashtra, across India, there are a lot of issues come up every year. There are floods 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:30.320 coming. There are cyclones coming. There are a lot of such natural calamities come. But during that 00:05:30.320 --> 00:05:35.920 natural calamity as well, there are certain processes followed by government and the government 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:42.160 agency and government officers. So, there are some said precedents that through what kind of 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:47.200 process has been followed early in the cyclone. Mumbai flood is very common and people know how 00:05:47.200 --> 00:05:53.600 do people manage during Mumbai flood, how do those transparent things are being done. So, 00:05:55.360 --> 00:06:05.600 some skeleton guidelines were there. Based on that, we internally created a proper process. 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:11.280 Like, every procurement was done by the committee of doctors. Like, there were three doctors, 00:06:11.280 --> 00:06:18.080 five doctors, odd committees were created. And there were every day morning meetings, every day 00:06:18.080 --> 00:06:25.600 discussion and everything was documented, especially the procurement. We used to ensure that at least 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:32.560 our advertisement go on the website. Let people see, even if suppose you get a response online. 00:06:32.560 --> 00:06:39.120 So, let that committee of doctors go through and the best suited proposal is accepted and 00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:47.520 likewise. So, that is how I think because we had some processes created, that helped us 00:06:48.080 --> 00:06:53.760 following all the transparent process. But I know that this transparent process 00:06:53.760 --> 00:07:02.080 are having little issues because during that time, through the thorough process was just not 00:07:02.080 --> 00:07:07.040 possible. Because in government, in case we have to go in for procurement, then 10 days 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:14.880 advertisement, 15 days. So, all that process runs over for 20 to 25 days. And here we had to get 00:07:15.440 --> 00:07:19.600 procurement done within two days, three days. And that too, we don't know the vendor. 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:24.800 We don't know the tradition of the vendors. But online, those documents we asked, we created and 00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:32.560 within the framework, within the problem, within the difficulties, we tried to 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:39.280 find a solution just transparent for that. That's wonderful. Thank you so much for giving us more 00:07:39.280 --> 00:07:48.800 insight into that. So, I also wanted to kind of ask about, because we're talking about Mumbai 00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:56.560 as a big metropolitan city, right, in particular, I wanted to ask about how did the dense environment 00:07:56.560 --> 00:08:03.920 and diverse population dynamics shape how you approached the decision making in the pandemic? 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:10.080 Yes, I think this is a very good question, because Mumbai scenario is a little different. 00:08:10.080 --> 00:08:18.640 About 60 lakh people stay in slums, which are informal, which doesn't have most of the places, 00:08:18.640 --> 00:08:24.400 doesn't have proper accesses, doesn't have proper sanitary facility, doesn't have proper drinking 00:08:24.400 --> 00:08:31.760 facility. And most of the most of the facilities are shared, like, take example of toilets, 00:08:31.760 --> 00:08:39.360 the toilets are public toilets. The toilets are being maybe shared by 100 people, 200 people, 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:46.880 depending on the size of the, you know, toilet block. So, and there are no proper accesses. 00:08:46.880 --> 00:08:54.720 So, during pandemic, it was a challenge as to how do we approach this slum? And how do we approach 00:08:54.720 --> 00:09:00.400 the conventional buildings, because there are buildings, there are accesses. So, comparatively, 00:09:00.400 --> 00:09:06.800 managing buildings and residents residing in the building was a little easier. But in the 00:09:06.800 --> 00:09:16.320 informal setup, it was a big challenge. But within the framework, we created 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:23.200 SOPs there also, how do we manage our containment area? If you remember, there was a phrase called 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:28.880 containment area, in case a certain number of persons are found to be positive, then that area 00:09:28.880 --> 00:09:36.080 was pardoned off and cut off from the rest of the area. And then all the facilities, because they 00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:41.840 are they are cut off from other people. So services was another challenge. How do we provide them 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:48.960 milk? How do we provide them medicine? How do we ensure their health? So all those. So for everything, 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:55.920 there was there was some mechanism, word wise, sector wise, area wise. So that mechanism was 00:09:55.920 --> 00:10:04.000 created. And that's how we approached primarily to the informal settlements. Wow. That honestly, 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:09.680 just just even like listening about it in hindsight, it just sounds like such a huge 00:10:09.680 --> 00:10:16.000 challenge because especially the temporary settlements, the slums, navigating around that 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:23.760 must have been just so hectic at that point of time. But I would say hats off honestly because 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:31.360 the way we were able to recover as a city is just commendable. So truly. 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:39.760 Well, I also wanted to kind of because you mentioned that there were people like ward boys, 00:10:39.760 --> 00:10:45.600 sector boys, and, you know, frontline healthcare workers. So I just wanted to see that, like ask 00:10:45.600 --> 00:10:52.480 you, like, during the, you know, admits the urgency of the crisis, how did you prioritize 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:58.240 the well being of these frontline workers and all the people that were coming in 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:06.080 to like help out during this process. And like thing on your role, could you share like maybe a 00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:12.640 specific instance where you found yourself at a crossroads, you know, balancing the imperative 00:11:12.640 --> 00:11:19.520 for public health interventions with the ethical considerations of individual liberties or cultural 00:11:19.520 --> 00:11:28.560 norms here. Okay, so I must tell you one thing which was very, very important for us. So far as 00:11:28.560 --> 00:11:35.600 bandrakoot law complex, COVID hospital is concerned. Luckily, the team of doctors, 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:41.600 you'll be surprised the age of doctor, average age of the doctor was between 35 to 38, average, 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:48.800 I'm saying. So I was lucky to get a team who's young, you know, they were on their toes, 00:11:48.800 --> 00:11:56.400 they were ready to take challenges, they were having their own ideas. And that's how I was very 00:11:56.400 --> 00:12:03.760 blessed to have a team like that. And second, so far as doctors are concerned, we were very sure 00:12:03.760 --> 00:12:09.360 that we have to take care of our doctors. Because unless we don't take care of them, 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:15.520 their health, their well being, their needs, then we will not be able to fight with this, 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:24.240 you know, situation. So we have, we requisitioned 5 star hotels in the BKC bandrakoot law complex. 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:30.480 So right from our compounder, the smallest level staff, they were residing in a hotel. So all the 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:37.680 facilities were made available along with the transport. And BKC primarily is because the 00:12:37.680 --> 00:12:45.040 closeness. So the doctor could easily walk in, walk out from the hospital to their destination. 00:12:45.520 --> 00:12:54.800 So that, I think, the first thing we have done. Second, we were closely monitoring doctors and 00:12:54.800 --> 00:13:01.840 providing all the safety gears, whatever was required. And we were ensuring that stock is there, 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:11.600 and those are properly being used. And best quality of material is available for them. 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:19.360 And the most important thing is to create a work environment where these people don't lose their 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:25.520 confidence. I think during that period, the most important thing was to keep these people energetic 00:13:25.520 --> 00:13:32.960 and high on spirit. So that's how we used to have open discussions within the framework 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:39.440 by following all norms, talking to most of these doctors. I myself was, you know, 00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:46.320 visiting in the ward along with the doctor, even though I don't, I'm not a qualified doctor and 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:54.000 not having qualification of that, but to give them moral support. So we used to go in the proper 00:13:54.000 --> 00:14:00.640 ward where all of these patients are there, including ICUs, just moral boost them. And 00:14:00.640 --> 00:14:08.320 continuous dialogue with them in case they want anything, because Lakilya had a young team. So 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:14.400 they had a lot of suggestions, a lot of objections. So that's how we could create that environment 00:14:14.400 --> 00:14:23.120 and run it properly. That's honestly, that's such a good system. And I absolutely agree that it's 00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:32.400 super important to have like build up team morale. And you mentioned that you yourself went into this, 00:14:32.400 --> 00:14:38.000 went into the hospital and went into the wards, like, you know, give them company and keep the 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:50.880 morale boosted. How did you grapple with the ethics of prioritizing your well-being versus 00:14:50.880 --> 00:14:56.800 prioritizing your well-being and your family's well-being versus, you know, like putting yourself 00:14:56.800 --> 00:15:03.200 out there and going into the front lines yourself, even though you did not have to, 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:10.320 like that was the decision that you made yourself. So what was the ethics behind that? 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:19.760 Well, while I was in charge of this VKC COVID pandemic hospital, I was also in charge of 00:15:19.760 --> 00:15:25.520 Mumbai Airport for quarantining the international passengers, they are there, travel to their 00:15:25.520 --> 00:15:31.920 destination, following all norms at the airport. So I was in charge of the mission at airport. 00:15:31.920 --> 00:15:38.880 So virtually I had to visit VKC hospital in the first half, second half whatever, 00:15:38.880 --> 00:15:44.960 and another second half in Mumbai Airport. And normally flights were coming late in the 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:50.320 ninth, 12 o'clock, 1 o'clock, all these distress passengers were coming. And as per the regulation, 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:57.600 we really had to put them in the hotel, put them in public transport. So it was a big challenge. 00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:04.640 So having said that, being a government employee, having 28 years of service, so we had gone through 00:16:04.640 --> 00:16:10.080 similar situations like this, may not be as big as this, but still we have been through these 00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:17.200 processes. And if you see that the doctors, the nurses, they were not going back to their house 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:23.440 for 15 days, 20 days, even a month, they were staying in a hotel. So looking at them, 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:31.040 automatically you feel like, yes, you have to be there to support them and to be there with 00:16:31.040 --> 00:16:39.600 them shoulder to shoulder. Wow. No, that is just incredible. And I think even that, 00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:46.400 I think this is something that was so special to maybe Indian government, Indian government's 00:16:46.400 --> 00:16:52.800 decision or Maharashtra government's decision. But it's the fact that when people came in 00:16:52.800 --> 00:17:02.400 internationally, they were situated in hotels. There was a system for this. And I think that is 00:17:02.400 --> 00:17:09.840 so commendable. Coming up with that must have been such a long process and kind of acquiring 00:17:09.840 --> 00:17:25.200 these hotels. And that's amazing. Well, thank you. And I just wanted to ask more about that in 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:32.720 terms of how did you foster this collaboration and trust among all the stakeholders from 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:40.320 grassroots organizations to government agencies to all the people? How was that process? 00:17:40.320 --> 00:17:49.760 Yes, there was a lot of trust deficit in the beginning because there were death rates 00:17:49.760 --> 00:17:58.640 increasing and many places may not be at our place, but many places across Maharashtra, 00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:05.920 across India, people were losing their faith in the system, whether we'll get oxygen, 00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:11.920 whether we'll get beds, those lot of things, a lot of speculation were done there. So finally, 00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:16.000 people were thinking, in case I'm turned out to be positive, if I'm turned out to be 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:26.480 affected by the virus, so how do I am going to get my medical facility? So those challenges 00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:34.240 were there. So we used to have a continue dialogue. We used to have communication 00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:42.160 over electronic, this thing, website, how do people should take care of them? There are hospitals, 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:48.240 all these information were available on the website. So on the WhatsApp, whatever possible, 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:53.760 whatever social media, whatever platform was available. So we used to kind of make 00:18:54.560 --> 00:19:00.320 brainstorming and providing all that necessary information, otherwise it is un-requires. 00:19:00.320 --> 00:19:15.680 That's amazing. And kind of going off of that, as you reflect on your ethical journey of navigating 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:23.600 the pandemic in Mumbai, what enduring lessons do you believe should shape the future of public 00:19:23.600 --> 00:19:30.720 health preparedness and response effects? Yes. I think this is another very good question, 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:38.640 because after the pandemic was over, or maybe in the last phase of the pandemic, 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:43.520 there were a lot of discussion as to how do we fight in case such as in the area of re-occurs. 00:19:43.520 --> 00:19:50.640 Because to be honest, no one was ready to the magnitude of health facility, 00:19:51.200 --> 00:20:00.400 which was required to fight this pandemic. Most of the facilities were created at the last leg, 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:07.600 because no one was aware as to what kind of facility this element requires, what kind of doctors, 00:20:07.600 --> 00:20:12.800 what kind of beds, whether because if you see in the first phase, people were saying that many 00:20:12.800 --> 00:20:18.720 people require oxygen. And second phase, a lot of oxygen was made available. There were other 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:24.480 comorbid issues. So once the person is found to be positive and admitted in the hospital, 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:31.280 so how do he manage his dialysis in case he's a dialysis patient? How do he manage his heart 00:20:31.280 --> 00:20:38.000 ailment? Because many people were admitted having comorbidity. So that was the biggest 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:44.080 challenge, how do we manage their other parameters? How do we see, ensure that their other parameter 00:20:44.080 --> 00:20:52.080 doesn't deteriorate while they fight with the pandemic, like this COVID virus. So I think that 00:20:52.080 --> 00:20:57.920 was the biggest challenge. But slowly, one by one, we were learning from the experiences. 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:08.400 But my point is like, we should be taking lessons from this big pandemic and create 00:21:09.040 --> 00:21:15.040 better health facility, create facility where you can convert those facilities quickly into such 00:21:15.040 --> 00:21:21.920 kind of hospital. Like we constructed a big pendulum like structure in BKC, we were not knowing. 00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:28.400 I remember when I was made as a in-charge, first time when I visited, and there was another doctor 00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:34.640 who was appointed as a dean, his state of SES said to me that this is no way the hospital and we 00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:40.640 cannot run a hospital in the pendulum like structure, people will die. So we started from that. 00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:48.080 So there was a lot of reluctance from the doctor, like how do we manage? This was a new situation, 00:21:48.080 --> 00:21:53.920 this was never had happened. Because when you see as a hospital, it is a full-fledged hospital 00:21:53.920 --> 00:22:01.280 with facilities, everything. So the point is like, we should be ready for such kind of occurrences in 00:22:01.280 --> 00:22:08.640 the future, create big health facilities and in case possible, create a regional facility. 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:16.400 Because if you see this area, especially Mumbai Metropolitan region, where there are about five 00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:23.760 districts including Mumbai, so except Mumbai Municipal Corporation, there are no much equipped 00:22:23.760 --> 00:22:30.960 government hospitals. Now, lot of people, they depend on government hospitals. In case we can 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:36.720 in case we can create a regional facility, let all these people contribute together and let 00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:45.840 there be a big facility where all these people throughout the year can get treatment and create 00:22:45.840 --> 00:22:52.640 additional such facility like big convention center or whatever, so that that particular place 00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:59.840 can be quickly converted into the hospital. So these discussions happened, 00:23:00.560 --> 00:23:04.960 this was one of the point of course, but how do we manage our procurement, how do we 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:14.400 take early decisions to stop the further damages. So I think there are many things which we have to 00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:21.920 concentrate on in case any such kind of incidents happen to fight with that. 00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:32.640 That's amazing. Thank you. So essentially, I think my next question was kind of 00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:41.760 just based off of that, how do we integrate these insights into a more ethically resilient 00:23:41.760 --> 00:23:48.320 framework for addressing global health crises. But before going into that, I just wanted to ask 00:23:49.440 --> 00:24:00.400 again, how would you approach a similar situation in the future with while also taking into consideration 00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:10.400 the ethics of the people who live in slums and the population that might not have as much of a 00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:19.120 structure as residential communities or building cooperative houses and stuff. So how would you 00:24:19.600 --> 00:24:26.880 look like what kind of insights have you gained from this experience in terms of that? 00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:40.800 Okay. So my experience of this pandemic is I think we are not able to document the entire 00:24:40.800 --> 00:24:47.920 this health issue properly. That's my personal view because during the pandemic many people 00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:55.040 have written their books. Now those books cannot consider as a document because there has to be 00:24:55.040 --> 00:25:00.960 a document from the day one as to how did you fight a particular incidence. Now those particular 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:08.080 incidents we fought and created some SOPs and left it there only. So it has to be from the day one 00:25:08.080 --> 00:25:14.880 from the one occurrence to the last occurrence, we have to kind of create a document. What has 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:22.080 happened? How do we have dealt with? What was the difficulty and more particularly for following 00:25:22.080 --> 00:25:27.760 the transparent process because in general people will say how do we follow this transparent process 00:25:27.760 --> 00:25:34.640 like there is a pandemic but nevertheless because you have already fought this big pandemic, there 00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:44.400 are first experiences you have gone through to learn you found solution and moved a bit. 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:52.320 So that those documents was not properly done. That's my personal thing and observation. 00:25:52.320 --> 00:26:00.640 That is my technique as far as ethical practice is concerned. Again, I am of the opinion that you 00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:07.120 can follow ethical practice. It doesn't matter what the situation is. Within that framework, 00:26:07.120 --> 00:26:13.840 you can always create a proper transparent process whereby you can do your procurement, 00:26:13.840 --> 00:26:21.600 you can do your proper day to day work, you can create a system for payments 00:26:21.600 --> 00:26:24.240 so that there are no questions asked later. 00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:37.920 That's that's thank you. Honestly, this was all such a so insightful as a public health student 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:47.600 and also a resident of Mumbai. I feel like there was so much not made. Obviously, a lot of these 00:26:47.600 --> 00:26:53.840 processes happen internally and we like the public never gets to hear about this because 00:26:53.840 --> 00:27:01.840 honestly, nobody asks. But this is this is like so insightful and I'm sure that 00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:07.280 like God forbid, but if another incident like this were to happen, I'm sure that the 00:27:07.280 --> 00:27:16.320 team could learn a lot from all the decision making that you were in charge of. So thank you so much. 00:27:16.320 --> 00:27:24.960 But again, I would like to supplement here. I was in charge of the airport. So when I was in 00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:31.440 charge of the airport, we could put some document on record. I asked you how to because that it was 00:27:32.320 --> 00:27:38.240 a very different situation. Like how do we quarantine people who are coming in a single 00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:45.760 aircraft? Then how do you segregate? How do you send them to the hotels? Who should pay the hotel 00:27:45.760 --> 00:27:51.360 charges after completing the quarantine? How do you release them from the quarantine like hotel 00:27:51.360 --> 00:27:59.120 place? And in case he is a resident of Pune or Nakhpur or wherever. So how do he travel 00:27:59.120 --> 00:28:05.440 during that pandemic and lockdown especially? So these were a lot of issues unless you document them. 00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:11.520 So maybe 50 years later, you will not be able to know what was followed during those pandemic years. 00:28:11.520 --> 00:28:24.880 Right, of course. And but so you're saying that because the airport situation came in a little 00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:32.960 later, you were able to like document that thing. Yes, we did we did prepare some document but again 00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:38.960 I'm not satisfied the way it was done because it has to be a collective effort from all sides. 00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:45.840 Of course, one document cannot conclude the entire episode. Of course, that makes so much sense. 00:28:45.840 --> 00:28:51.600 Yes. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you. Would you have any closing thoughts? 00:28:54.640 --> 00:29:01.200 As far as ethical practice is concerned because these days this ethical word is very, very prominent 00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:07.680 and important for everyone because especially in the government and of course in the private sector, 00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:14.160 unless you follow that ethical practice and unless you follow the transparent process, 00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:20.560 be it be a private sector or government, so the trust building will not be there. 00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:28.880 And to ensure that trust building, your transfer process will come for the organization. 00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:36.880 Thank you so much. That is a great sentiment, honestly. And thank you for your time, Mr. Ankade. 00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:44.320 And hope you have a great rest of your day. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All the best.