WEBVTT 00:00:08.604 --> 00:00:15.164 Hello, and welcome to CICE the Podcast, a student-led podcast out of Teachers College, Columbia University. 00:00:15.164 --> 00:00:24.864 As students of comparative and international education, we started this podcast to connect academic research in the field to the current events they inform and explain. 00:00:24.864 --> 00:00:31.404 My name is Richaa Hoysala, and I'm a master's student in the International Education Development Program. 00:00:31.404 --> 00:00:32.604 And I'm Nadia Ford. 00:00:32.604 --> 00:00:39.184 I'm a master's student in the International and Comparative Education Program at Teachers College, and we will be your host for this episode. 00:00:47.133 --> 00:00:59.033 Over the past few years, we've seen polarizing politics around the world, and we've grown accustomed and desensitized to the increasing number of stories regarding polarization, prejudice and hate. 00:00:59.033 --> 00:01:13.153 Although this phenomena of exclusion and discrimination is not new, the prevalence of it today and in recent history is of concern, especially in the policies and practices that impact schools and classrooms. 00:01:13.153 --> 00:01:23.373 In today's episode, we will learn more about where this is coming from and what we can do as educators and educational researchers to support our students and teachers. 00:01:23.373 --> 00:01:33.193 Our guest today is Vikramaditya Joshi, a second year doctoral student in the Philosophy and Education program at Teachers College, Columbia University. 00:01:33.193 --> 00:01:49.553 He currently serves as the Director of Research and Partnerships at Reimagine Resilience, an innovative professional development program designed for educators and educational staff to nurture resilience as an integral capacity in their practices and for their students. 00:01:49.553 --> 00:01:50.033 Hi, Vik. 00:01:50.033 --> 00:01:51.393 Welcome to the show. 00:01:51.393 --> 00:01:52.653 Hi, Vik. 00:01:52.653 --> 00:01:58.673 Our first question for you is, how do you make sense of these events that we see happening around the world? 00:01:58.673 --> 00:02:06.153 We're doing something which is what's heavily required, which is dialoguing, speaking with each other. 00:02:06.153 --> 00:02:11.393 The few first words I've heard is being accustomed to these things, being desensitized to these things. 00:02:12.013 --> 00:02:27.513 And a few concepts that will have ground our discussion, I think today, are firstly bias, which is often thought about as, oh, we have programs that we simply make people aware of their biases, right, and make people simply know about their biases. 00:02:27.513 --> 00:02:30.133 The question is, where do they come from? 00:02:30.133 --> 00:02:32.233 Why do these biases occur? 00:02:32.233 --> 00:02:36.913 And a big part of why those biases occurs is because we don't speak with each other enough. 00:02:37.473 --> 00:02:47.073 One idea we often talk about that's in the literature, but it's not really spoken about in this way is that bias and curiosity can't coexist. 00:02:47.073 --> 00:02:51.353 If you're going to exhibit biased behavior, you're not going to be asking questions. 00:02:51.353 --> 00:02:53.793 You're not going to be interested in learning more. 00:02:53.793 --> 00:02:56.153 You're going to be interested in conclusions. 00:02:56.153 --> 00:03:09.393 And when biases have conclusions which are prejudicial or can harm someone else, then we really get concerned about what conclusion someone is reaching, which is not necessarily of their own volition, right, not their own will. 00:03:09.653 --> 00:03:12.733 They're just taking in a conclusion from somewhere. 00:03:12.733 --> 00:03:18.713 And I think fear is a very powerful motivator to move people, right? 00:03:18.713 --> 00:03:24.373 And I think bias and fear are two very complementary concepts. 00:03:24.373 --> 00:03:31.053 Because with fear of the unknown or the other, that works very well with this idea of a lack of curiosity. 00:03:32.673 --> 00:03:39.833 This notion of bias, lack of curiosity and the fear of the unknown is reminding me of what is happening at home. 00:03:39.833 --> 00:03:46.513 In India, we've been seeing rising Hindu nationalism with anti-Muslim and anti-Dalit sentiments. 00:03:46.513 --> 00:03:53.313 Most recently, in my home state of Karnataka, the High Court upheld a ban on hijabs in the classroom. 00:03:53.313 --> 00:04:00.313 And as a result, young Muslim women are being systematically excluded from their right to education. 00:04:00.313 --> 00:04:04.173 How do you make sense of these events in terms of the ideas that you've mentioned? 00:04:05.753 --> 00:04:08.733 This story in particular is deeply upsetting to me. 00:04:08.733 --> 00:04:13.293 I grew up in India, I've spent all of my childhood there. 00:04:13.293 --> 00:04:23.313 This ban on a visible form of honouring one's faith highlights what we just talked about, when there is no curiosity. 00:04:23.313 --> 00:04:32.633 And what's really, really deeply disappointing is that the arguments behind such a decision, they are prejudicial. 00:04:34.213 --> 00:04:46.873 There's a really powerful video of a Muslim girl trying to walk into her school, and there are a bunch of men just standing there trying to intimidate her out of her education. 00:04:46.873 --> 00:04:50.533 And you wonder, fear is a powerful motivator, right? 00:04:51.073 --> 00:04:54.133 You see that happening, because what do they show? 00:04:54.133 --> 00:04:55.913 They show a narrative of fear. 00:04:55.913 --> 00:05:03.853 And that's why I think we have to bring this idea of narratives in, because a bias is trying to seed a story into someone. 00:05:03.853 --> 00:05:10.193 It's to tell them that this is a story of a person, a story of a people, and you need to buy into it wholeheartedly. 00:05:10.193 --> 00:05:13.993 Because once you do, then all your bias and prejudicial con... 00:05:13.993 --> 00:05:15.793 it makes sense, actually. 00:05:15.793 --> 00:05:31.633 But if you accept the premises of those of those stories, the more you know about someone, research has shown this again and again, the less likely you are to immediately make assumptions about someone, because you know more about them, you've lived with them, you've seen them grow up. 00:05:31.633 --> 00:05:39.893 And so this lack of familiarity, this lack of curiosity opens up this vulnerable space where someone can tell a story for you. 00:05:39.893 --> 00:05:41.573 They take away your agency. 00:05:42.953 --> 00:05:46.093 Vik, thank you very much for what you just shared. 00:05:46.093 --> 00:05:53.013 And there were a few things that stuck out to me, notably narratives and storytelling. 00:05:53.013 --> 00:06:00.333 And I would like to share a little bit about my own, I guess, narrative and the ways that I have seen bias play out in my own life. 00:06:00.333 --> 00:06:08.553 I grew up on the border of Mexico in Del Rio, Texas, which is a town that was in the news a little bit last year. 00:06:08.553 --> 00:06:18.333 The image that was circulating of a border patrol agent on horseback, whenever there were many individuals who were seeking asylum in the Rio Grande. 00:06:18.333 --> 00:06:24.433 And as a child, I would explore my neighborhood selling little trinkets to save money for a pet. 00:06:24.953 --> 00:06:32.673 And sometimes my friends and I would enter half built homes to see, oh, wow, is this one day going to be a mansion? 00:06:32.673 --> 00:06:35.313 And if I lived here, here's the room that I would want. 00:06:35.313 --> 00:06:37.093 And here's the room that you could have. 00:06:37.093 --> 00:06:39.333 And this is what the playroom would be. 00:06:39.333 --> 00:06:47.593 And flash forward, teen, 10, 15 years later, summer of 2021, my partner and I were dressed up pretty cute. 00:06:47.593 --> 00:06:49.593 You know, we were about to go on a little date. 00:06:49.593 --> 00:06:50.673 It was sunset. 00:06:50.673 --> 00:06:51.933 We were having a good time. 00:06:52.033 --> 00:06:55.513 And we were walking on the street right behind my own. 00:06:55.513 --> 00:07:07.073 And at points we were stopping to, you know, say, oh, I love the frame of that chimney or, oh, what a beautiful garage door and things like that. 00:07:07.073 --> 00:07:17.353 And in the time that it took us to walk from the beginning of the street to the end and back, three different individuals had called the cops on us. 00:07:17.353 --> 00:07:21.553 So we get back to the end of the street and a cop car pulls up. 00:07:21.993 --> 00:07:24.873 And my partner tells me, you know, oh, that's for us. 00:07:24.873 --> 00:07:26.673 And I tell him, no, no, no, it's not. 00:07:26.673 --> 00:07:29.193 Like, I grew up here, I'm not new in town. 00:07:29.193 --> 00:07:31.033 This is my community. 00:07:31.033 --> 00:07:36.213 These are individuals who, as you had mentioned earlier, Vik, have seen me grow up. 00:07:36.213 --> 00:07:37.373 There's no way. 00:07:37.373 --> 00:07:40.373 And sure enough, we keep walking up to the end of the street. 00:07:40.373 --> 00:07:49.573 And at this point, I can see, you know, my own backyard in view and two police officers come up to us and inform us. 00:07:49.913 --> 00:07:52.713 We have received some calls of a disturbance. 00:07:52.713 --> 00:07:53.733 Where are you all from? 00:07:53.733 --> 00:07:55.733 What are you all doing here? 00:07:55.733 --> 00:08:10.573 And it's just, I couldn't just really sit with the fact that this is a community that, you know, has seen me grow up, that was paying me $5 for a little beaded bracelet I made so that I could save money for a pet. 00:08:10.573 --> 00:08:15.493 And here we are so many years later and they are afraid of me. 00:08:15.493 --> 00:08:23.113 And I would just love to hear in, you know, your own experience and in the work and the research that you've done, what you make of this. 00:08:23.113 --> 00:08:25.153 Thank you for sharing that story, Nadia. 00:08:25.753 --> 00:08:33.813 It's both, it moves me and at the same time, it's a story that really kind of motivates our work. 00:08:33.813 --> 00:08:40.613 And the first, there are a few things I'd want to say about the story and then how it connects to the work that we're doing. 00:08:40.773 --> 00:08:44.873 That moment of recognition that your partner has, it's for us. 00:08:45.673 --> 00:08:49.013 It shows that the story is already out there. 00:08:49.013 --> 00:08:51.673 The story is so typical. 00:08:51.673 --> 00:08:55.173 It's so honestly, it's so boring. 00:08:55.173 --> 00:08:58.493 And your partner's phrase says it all, that's for us. 00:08:58.493 --> 00:09:02.153 Because there's nothing more to tell because the stories are so uninteresting, right? 00:09:02.153 --> 00:09:04.213 Because they just have to tell one story. 00:09:04.213 --> 00:09:07.653 And it connects with this idea of dominating the narrative. 00:09:07.653 --> 00:09:09.433 You can't have doubt. 00:09:09.433 --> 00:09:11.413 You can't have change. 00:09:11.413 --> 00:09:13.353 Bias is also premised on stability. 00:09:14.633 --> 00:09:18.413 This needs to be stable so that we can apply it with regularity. 00:09:18.413 --> 00:09:20.633 That's one of the first parts when I hear this story. 00:09:20.633 --> 00:09:37.593 The second part, which I think is so important for listeners to hear, is bias and the way bias operates is to fractionalize, like fragment us, where that fragmentation is accompanied by a sense of competition. 00:09:37.593 --> 00:09:40.213 So it's not just, oh, we're separated. 00:09:41.133 --> 00:09:42.793 We can't share in the same good. 00:09:42.793 --> 00:09:44.173 We can't share in the same joys. 00:09:44.173 --> 00:09:49.233 We can't share the same wants, the same needs that human beings have. 00:09:49.233 --> 00:09:52.473 No, because we're separated, it's us against you. 00:09:52.473 --> 00:10:07.993 But the third part, which I think is the other positive aspect of sharing stories like this, is that sharing the story connected to, say, our personal histories makes these personal histories linked to larger questions or patterns. 00:10:08.893 --> 00:10:13.133 Vik, I'm taking away a lot about the relationship between biases and narrative. 00:10:13.133 --> 00:10:19.813 I especially liked what you mentioned about sharing stories to break or challenge the dominant narrative. 00:10:19.813 --> 00:10:28.853 Shifting gears a little to bias in an educational setting, have there been programs in the past that have focused on bias in classrooms or schools? 00:10:28.853 --> 00:10:30.753 What can we learn from them? 00:10:32.113 --> 00:10:33.273 Absolutely. 00:10:33.273 --> 00:10:45.013 When we were researching anti-Muslim bias initiatives that were occurring in different parts of the world, we found a very extensively studied one called the PREVENT program in the United Kingdom. 00:10:45.013 --> 00:10:56.453 They were trying to help educators and teachers talk about Islam as a faith and the practices that are associated with Islam, different forms of prayer and gathering. 00:10:56.453 --> 00:11:05.753 What that unfortunately turned out to be was the surveillance of Muslim students in the classroom, which served to exclude them and marginalize them further. 00:11:05.753 --> 00:11:20.093 And second, it actually made the differences between Muslim students and students of any other faith seem more exaggerated than less, which only serves to exclude, alienate and isolate. 00:11:20.093 --> 00:11:26.293 Based on what you've learned from past programs, where does your program, Reimagine Resilience, come from? 00:11:28.293 --> 00:11:30.693 Reimagine Resilience is led by Dr. 00:11:30.693 --> 00:11:31.993 Amra Savich-El-Rey. 00:11:31.993 --> 00:11:36.733 She's a professor at Teachers College, Columbia University. 00:11:36.733 --> 00:11:38.893 And she has an idea. 00:11:38.893 --> 00:11:42.793 So this is the idea that the program is based on. 00:11:42.793 --> 00:11:45.553 And it's called Educational Displacement. 00:11:45.553 --> 00:11:56.793 So there are a few ways to describe Educational Displacement, but the way I like to describe it is, Educational Displacement occurs when a student feels invisible in the classroom. 00:11:56.793 --> 00:11:59.473 And there are three forms of invisibility I can talk about. 00:11:59.473 --> 00:12:03.493 There's invisibility of voice, where their voice is just not heard. 00:12:03.493 --> 00:12:07.073 They just don't feel like they can share their story. 00:12:07.073 --> 00:12:09.873 The second is an invisibility of representation. 00:12:09.873 --> 00:12:17.493 I don't see a single story in the curriculum where I can see, that's me, or that's a part of my story. 00:12:17.493 --> 00:12:22.073 And the third invisibility, one can call invisibility of, say, curiosity. 00:12:23.593 --> 00:12:28.313 We often say there's a culture of silence, not a culture of question posing. 00:12:28.313 --> 00:12:31.393 Because every student should be able to ask a question. 00:12:31.393 --> 00:12:35.573 And so that's kind of what grounds reimagined resilience. 00:12:35.573 --> 00:12:37.653 Can you tell us more about the program? 00:12:37.653 --> 00:12:40.813 How is this program different from those in the past? 00:12:42.053 --> 00:12:50.653 The program itself is a professional development opportunity for educators to nurture resilience as a capacity in their practice. 00:12:51.413 --> 00:13:02.553 Now, when coming to your question about what reimagined resilience is doing and how it's responding to what's been happening, what the focus has been on, as I briefly mentioned, was bias awareness. 00:13:02.553 --> 00:13:13.593 Let's engage in your positionality and where you teach from, where you move from, where you learn from, and then let's leave after we help you become aware of that. 00:13:13.593 --> 00:13:17.113 You now figure out this difficult question of identity all on your own. 00:13:18.173 --> 00:13:22.013 For us, that felt like a good first step, a very important first step. 00:13:22.013 --> 00:13:26.273 I want to very openly recognize the importance of that work. 00:13:26.273 --> 00:13:29.293 See, we just felt that it was incomplete. 00:13:29.293 --> 00:13:40.093 What we think is important is bias awareness is an important part, but also is the expression of what you've become aware of. 00:13:40.093 --> 00:13:44.193 If I'm aware of all these things now, what are ways in which I can express myself? 00:13:44.453 --> 00:13:50.153 To have this storytelling, to have this recognition of your voice to happen in the classroom. 00:13:50.153 --> 00:13:53.933 You mentioned the program focused on the skill of resilience. 00:13:53.933 --> 00:13:59.293 How is resilience defined and how are you re-imagining it? 00:13:59.293 --> 00:14:05.193 Yes, I love this question and there are two parts to the answer. 00:14:05.193 --> 00:14:09.293 The first part is the resilience part. 00:14:09.293 --> 00:14:27.353 For us, we're very interested in a lot of the work that we've seen has shown that resilience is valued across any kind of political affiliations, as a capacity in students, in educators and even in context beyond that. 00:14:27.353 --> 00:14:34.453 We were really interested in what is resilience being defined as for people to value it so much. 00:14:34.453 --> 00:14:38.213 When we went into the literature, we saw that resilience is described as a form of endurance. 00:14:40.233 --> 00:14:45.133 We thought that there are actually a few concerns we have about this metaphor. 00:14:45.133 --> 00:14:48.413 One, it's an individual that is often talked about in the literature. 00:14:48.413 --> 00:14:50.533 Resilience as an individual capacity. 00:14:50.533 --> 00:14:52.573 It's only for you to cultivate. 00:14:52.573 --> 00:14:57.513 The second part with resilience is that it's always in response to a specific problem. 00:14:57.513 --> 00:15:09.693 That's something which we were also concerned about because it raises the question of, let's wait for a crisis or for a really difficult or tragic event to tap into our resilience, which we found quite strange. 00:15:09.693 --> 00:15:22.333 And all the narratives that we saw in the literature, like where they were drawing stories of resilience, it was often a story of someone on their own, who had to do it by themselves, not without, not with the support of a community. 00:15:22.333 --> 00:15:27.253 As I find that this is something which makes a story much more appealing to an audience. 00:15:27.253 --> 00:15:31.553 When a person does it on their own, when you see these biographies of people, right? 00:15:31.553 --> 00:15:34.153 It's often they did it by themselves. 00:15:34.153 --> 00:15:35.473 They bucked the trend. 00:15:35.473 --> 00:15:36.473 They succeeded on their own. 00:15:37.353 --> 00:15:43.393 When you read the biography, you realize this person's achievement is actually a completely collective achievement. 00:15:43.393 --> 00:15:46.373 That all achievements are collective achievements. 00:15:46.373 --> 00:15:48.733 So to offer what we imagine resilience is doing. 00:15:48.733 --> 00:15:58.073 We look at a community-based approach of resilience, which is why educators who come through the program, it's not just for you to go through the program on your own, learn something and leave. 00:15:58.073 --> 00:16:00.793 You will learn about the other teachers in the program. 00:16:00.793 --> 00:16:07.293 There are many activities which will draw on influences and reflections from all over the country. 00:16:07.293 --> 00:16:09.133 That's the first change in resilience. 00:16:09.133 --> 00:16:13.753 The second change in resilience is not just in moments of crisis. 00:16:13.753 --> 00:16:22.713 Resilience is a capacity we think can be a way to look at responding to say how you deal with social media, for example. 00:16:22.713 --> 00:16:32.013 There is a form of resilience when it comes to being in the classroom and recognizing that resilience doesn't have to look at, doesn't have to be simply overcoming a stressor. 00:16:32.793 --> 00:16:46.073 Resilience could be something where you think about I read this story, how am I responding to it, how are we responding to it, and how can we be resilient against certain habits of mind or tendencies we have. 00:16:46.073 --> 00:16:49.993 And the last way is to obviously spotlighting stories. 00:16:49.993 --> 00:16:57.953 Because when we learn about stories of resilience, then we can actually think about how to better understand people. 00:16:59.593 --> 00:17:03.853 We have been talking a lot about narratives and the importance of sharing stories. 00:17:03.853 --> 00:17:06.713 What kinds of stories do you share in your program? 00:17:06.713 --> 00:17:08.813 Where do these stories come from? 00:17:10.253 --> 00:17:15.173 Like I said, at the heart of Reimagined Resilience is Dr. 00:17:15.173 --> 00:17:16.653 Amra Sabich Al Reyes' story. 00:17:16.653 --> 00:17:18.633 And I must begin with that. 00:17:18.633 --> 00:17:18.993 Dr. 00:17:18.993 --> 00:17:24.593 Amra Sabich Al Reyes was a survivor of the Bosnian genocide in the 1990s. 00:17:24.593 --> 00:17:26.513 So a Bosniak is a Bosnian Muslim. 00:17:27.213 --> 00:17:35.853 She was growing up in Bosnia at the time, where the Serb forces were ethnically cleansing Muslims. 00:17:35.853 --> 00:17:39.493 She just recently wrote her memoir about this story. 00:17:39.493 --> 00:17:44.053 It's called The Cat I Never Named, a story of love, war and survival. 00:17:44.053 --> 00:17:48.873 And there's this moment I want to share, which clearly highlights the power of the story. 00:17:48.873 --> 00:17:57.653 So there's a scene, Amra and her father are standing at their doorstep, at the door, and the Serbian boys come in, who are, you know, part of the military. 00:17:57.653 --> 00:18:02.813 They see that there's this abandoned Serb house, who were Amra's neighbors. 00:18:02.813 --> 00:18:07.993 Amra looks at them, robbing the house, looting the house, taking away all their things. 00:18:07.993 --> 00:18:11.933 And the young Amra says, you know, they deserve to be robbed. 00:18:11.933 --> 00:18:13.693 I hate them. 00:18:13.693 --> 00:18:19.853 And her father is right next to her and looks down at her and says, Amra, we shouldn't say that. 00:18:19.853 --> 00:18:25.913 They are just like us, yearning for things, yearning for food, for housing, for shelter. 00:18:25.913 --> 00:18:28.713 And they have forgotten their humanity. 00:18:28.713 --> 00:18:35.613 No matter what you do in life, things like this will pass and we should always remember our humanity. 00:18:35.613 --> 00:18:42.013 And this is her father telling her daughter about people who are persecuting them. 00:18:42.013 --> 00:18:44.993 And it's such a powerful moment of resilience. 00:18:44.993 --> 00:18:49.393 Amra's father could have fed into those narratives, that could have closed Amra's thinking. 00:18:49.433 --> 00:18:55.553 But he said, no, you need to remember your humanity, even if your oppressor is doing that to you. 00:18:55.553 --> 00:19:09.213 And it was a really powerful moment, which we use in the program in Reimagined Resilience, because Amra's story is a story about how, through the survival of her genocide, education plays a key role in that process. 00:19:09.213 --> 00:19:13.033 Amra keeps going to school during this siege of her hometown. 00:19:13.033 --> 00:19:16.093 She immigrates to America and begins studying here. 00:19:16.733 --> 00:19:24.013 So that's what would form a kind of backbone of the program, where we look at different aspects of this story. 00:19:24.013 --> 00:19:28.273 And to the other part of the question is, where do we get our stories from? 00:19:28.273 --> 00:19:31.193 To be very honest, we get our stories from all of you. 00:19:31.193 --> 00:19:33.853 We ask teachers to share their stories. 00:19:33.853 --> 00:19:38.053 We seek stories from students to share their experiences. 00:19:38.053 --> 00:19:39.433 That is incredible. 00:19:39.433 --> 00:19:43.553 I recently read Professor Amra's book, and I found it exceptionally inspiring. 00:19:44.113 --> 00:19:55.533 I'm sure her stories, and stories from students and teachers in the program, will have a profound impact in disrupting the dominant narratives and providing multiple perspectives. 00:19:57.193 --> 00:20:07.093 To conclude, as we read about policies and practices like the hijab ban in India or the Don't Say Gay Bill here in America, how can we practice resilience? 00:20:07.093 --> 00:20:10.953 What advice do you have for educators, students and parents? 00:20:13.093 --> 00:20:16.453 Yeah, this is a really important question. 00:20:16.453 --> 00:20:27.253 And the reason why our story telling is extremely important, we argue, and which is why we center it in our world, is telling a story takes time. 00:20:27.253 --> 00:20:35.333 And on a more personal note, I think it's just very important for us to form kind of lateral ties in our community. 00:20:35.333 --> 00:20:45.093 You know, the examples you've shared accompanied by, you know, for example, the banning of certain books, right, that is occurring, in some ways, no surprise at all. 00:20:45.093 --> 00:20:56.213 Because if we've talked about how it's important to control the narrative, it is not surprising that folks want to limit what narratives can be part of a student's learning experience. 00:20:56.213 --> 00:21:03.493 If you have people in your community who are maybe talking about it or maybe affected by it, it's important that you recognize this. 00:21:03.493 --> 00:21:10.173 If there are folks in your community who are reading the same stories as you, that they may be having feelings about it. 00:21:10.173 --> 00:21:20.153 One thing which we often do, this is something which in our research is across the political spectrum, is we think, I'll just reserve this for my living room conversation. 00:21:20.153 --> 00:21:25.553 But the question is that, do we want to expand our circle of empathy? 00:21:25.553 --> 00:21:30.253 Do we want to expand our circle of empathy beyond just the people we live with? 00:21:30.253 --> 00:21:33.773 As we will see when it all boils down to what individual people are doing too. 00:21:36.213 --> 00:21:44.633 Wow, Vik, well, just thank you so much for the time that you've taken to share Reimagine Resilience with us and the listeners here. 00:21:44.633 --> 00:21:51.593 And we deeply appreciate how much knowledge we have gained from you and the incredible, incredible work that you are doing. 00:21:51.593 --> 00:21:53.293 Thank you very much for taking this time. 00:21:53.293 --> 00:21:55.093 Thank you so much. 00:21:55.093 --> 00:21:56.153 Yeah, thank you both. 00:21:56.173 --> 00:21:56.953 It's been a pleasure. 00:22:04.138 --> 00:22:12.038 CICE The Podcast is part of Current Issues in Comparative Education, an open access journal in the field of comparative education. 00:22:12.038 --> 00:22:16.818 CICE is the oldest open student-led journal in the field. 00:22:16.818 --> 00:22:23.158 CICE The Podcast wishes to thank doctoral and master students who have contributed to this episode. 00:22:23.158 --> 00:22:26.078 Credits can be found on our website. 00:22:26.078 --> 00:22:30.618 For additional information on Reimagine Resilience, please see the links in the bio.